SPIEGEL: Bishop Tutu, you recently threatened to emigrate, should the murders among blacks not stop. Yet in the black townships collaborators with the white regime are being killed almost daily: anti-apartheid revolutionaries and sometimes criminals are killing black police officers and government officials who they regard as traitors. Are you packing your bags?

TUTU: I was attending an emotionally charged funeral when I spoke those words. I wanted to express my deeply felt abhorrence of violence. I love my country much too passionately to leave, especially in the current situation.

SPIEGEL: The killings continue and even you seem powerless to stop them?

TUTU: I had hoped, of course, that my call for the violence to stop would be heard. We have probably reached the point of no return. The treatment of quislings is just as atrocious as the revenge taken out on IRA traitors in Northern Ireland. For as long as apartheid exists, I fear that we will have to live with this terrible reality.

SPIEGEL: Are you totally against violence or are there some kinds of violent resistance that you accept?

TUTU: I would hardly have been awarded the Nobel Peace Prize had I not been against all forms of violence - be it violence by a suppressive government or violence by people fighting such a system.

SPIEGEL: President Botha recently set only one precondition for talks with anti-apartheid people like yourself: The guarantee of non-violence. Could you tell us, then, what is standing in the way of talks?

TUTU: Botha refused to meet with me. He did originally say that the use of non-violence was his only precondition. He later added, however, that we should also speak out against civil disobedience. I told him straight: Never. I mean, what other methods are available to people such as me who want to end apartheid using peaceful means?

SPIEGEL: But Botha did invite you and a church delegation to talks?

TUTU: We did all this five years ago. We went to meet him, but he didn't really want to discuss the issues with us. Botha simply wants to use such occasions to express his views - and we are all supposed to listen contently and nod our heads in agreement.

SPIEGEL: So you don't see any purpose in talking to the President?

TUTU: I didn't say that. I would like to meet him face to face, or at the very most with a small select group of people. But first he must put an end to martial law and pull the army out of black residential areas.

SPIEGEL: Are these your preconditions?

TUTU: Yes. In principle I am prepared to talk.

SPIEGEL: Does the militant and revolutionary African National Congress (ANC) represent a large, if not largest majority of black South Africans?

TUTU: Yes, and I regard the head of the ANC, Nelson Mandela as my leader.

SPIEGEL: And despite this you wouldn't first demand the release of Nelson Mandela and the legalization of the ANC before entering talks with Botha?

TUTU: Were I to speak with Botha it would be in the role of messenger; I have no bargaining powers. I would simply try to persuade those currently in power to enter into talks with the true leaders of the people.

SPIEGEL: Isn't the Zulu chief Gatscha Buthelezi also one of these true leaders? He doesn't belong to the ANC and has a large following.

TUTU: It's true that he has his followers. But surveys suggest that his supporters number far less than for the other leaders.

SPIEGEL: Black resistance against apartheid is split. The United Democratic Front (UDF), which is close the ANC, the Azanian People Organization (Azapo), which belongs to the black conscience movement and does not allow white members, and Buthelezis Inkatha are often involved in bloody battles with each other. Doesn't this weaken the fight against apartheid?

TUTU: I would, of course, much rather see a united front. The future lies in a coalition between all these groups. At the moment we need agreement on united action. Recent efforts which brought different groupings together were aimed at achieving this. And I believe that we have laid the foundations for success.

SPIEGEL: Even without unity among blacks?

TUTU: Unity is important, but we are grasping at stars if we expect ideological agreement.

SPIEGEL: Might you be the right man to unite the blacks were you to chose a political career? Or would you prefer to remain a priest making occasional incursions into the world of politics?

TUTU: I have never had political ambitions. Only a few days ago I said to Mrs Mandela: "Do everything you can to make sure that your husband is released from prison so that the things that need doing can be done."

SPIEGEL: Have you ever met Nelson Mandela personally?

TUTU: Once, at the beginning of the 60s before he was sentenced to life imprisonment. I was studying in Johannesburg and Nelson Mandela was leading the discussions in a debate in which I was taking part. I remember him as a tall and handsome man and as having a personality that shone.

SPIEGEL: Are you in regular contact with the exiled ANC leadership?

TUTU: I always say that I have met with representatives of the ANC following all my visits. We sometimes share holy communion. I refuse to let the government dictate to me who I should befriend.

SPIEGEL: The ANC is regarded as a movement influenced strongly by communism. How do you and the church justify your closeness to a partially atheistic group?

TUTU: I have to tell you that this is nothing more than defamation. Almost all of the ANC's leadership have been christened. Albert Luthuli, the former leader of the ANC and Nobel Prize laureate was also a leading figure in the church. And there are other ANC leaders who think along similar lines including the incumbent leader, Oliver Tambo. He once even wanted to become an Anglican priest.

SPIEGEL: That's along time ago...

TUTU: People such as Nelson Mandela were against communists in the ANC for a long time. But even while the exiled ANC leaders were still in South Africa they were not slow to recognize that the only whites that treated them like human beings and with respect were also members of the South African Communist Party. And what's more: The experience of the exiled ANC leaders has shown that support for their cause almost always comes from behind the Iron Curtain.

SPIEGEL: Military help certainly. But isn't it true that members of the South African Communist Party have seats in the Central Committee of the ANC?

TUTU: I don't think so. This is one of the accusations aimed at bringing the movement into disrepute. Because the government can find no reason to reject the ANC's demands, they turn - as always- to communism for help. The West did not become communist after receiving help from Russia in its fight against Nazi Germany. So why should our people become communist simply because it accepts help from wherever it comes? We are fighting for human rights, for a political system in which the people are free to choose their own ideology. We hope that democracy is so attractive that the totalitarian alternative has little chance. There are Communist Parties in Great Britain and Germany, but the governments of these countries are not communist.

SPIEGEL: Don't you worry that leading church leaders such as yourself could be finished if South Africa were to become communist?

TUTU: All those who are against apartheid in South Africa are labeled as communists. Even I have been described as a communist. My people have a saying: The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

SPIEGEL: There are two examples from southern Africa's recent history that give pause for thought: Prominent members of the church in Mozambique and Angola fought tirelessly for the people against Portuguese colonial rule right up until independence in the mid 70s. Despite this, those in power today in these countries make no secret out of their hostility towards the church. Isn't there a chance that the same thing could happen in South Africa?

TUTU: Why talk about Mozambique and Angola when we could just as easily talk about Zimbabwe? The Catholic Church fought just as bravely against the horrors of the settler regime in what was formally Rhodesia and the churches were not closed there when blacks came to power. Why don't we talk about Kenya, which became one of Africa's most stable countries following the Mau-Mau uprisings - with a strong church? Most African countries are not Marxist and have religious populations.

SPIEGEL: The whites in Mozambique and Angola had to run for the last ships out of the country as the revolution was victorious. In former Rhodesia there was a bloody civil war. The change of power, however, was eventually negotiated around the table in Lancaster House in London between black and white Rhodesians. Which of these two scenarios do you think is most likely in South Africa?

TUTU: While I don't have a crystal ball, I do hope that further unnecessary deaths can be avoided. Apartheid has already cost enough lives. More than 800 people have died during the unrest since 1984. And there could be many more.

SPIEGEL: It has become increasingly difficult to get reliable information about the violent events in the black townships since the South African government sharpened censorship laws for journalists, especially for photo-journalists in the region. The government says it hopes that this will lead to a calming of the situation. Is it right?

TUTU: This is a favorite trick often employed by unjust regimes: They shoot the messenger because they don't like the message. I find this terrifying. The situation was bad enough as journalists were still relatively free to report on events. I shudder to imagine what will happen now that the public has been prevented from finding out.

SPIEGEL: Bishop Tutu, tens of thousands of young and radical blacks, who are determined to bring about the end of the regime using violence, who refer to themselves as "comrades" and who have not been attending school for months even regard you as an Uncle Tom figure, someone who lives with the system. How much longer do you think you can have a moderate influence?

TUTU: If I were young, I would have stopped listening to people such as me too. I'm surprised that there are any young people who still listen.

SPIEGEL: Doesn't this worry you? You could find yourself torn between defenders of apartheid and the radical anti-apartheid groups.

TUTU: I was recently talking to the wife of a white friend on the street. A young white youth threatened me saying he would put a hand grenade in my pocket. You're are, of course, right. I am a possible target of attack from a whole host of people. I have been receiving death threats for a long time. If assignations can be carried out on the President of America, what chance has a normal citizen such as me? But I refuse to become obsessed and to live in fear of violence.

SPIEGEL: You're talking about the worse case scenario. But you could also be arrested like thousands of other anti-apartheid activists in the last few months.

TUTU: What's the point of worrying about the chance of being arrested? It is, however, true that blacks have been imprisoned or are exiled for only the slightest allegiance to a group. The government achieves little by trying to destroy the leaders of the people - and in the end will lead to its own destruction. Take the shopping boycotts across wide stretches of the country for example. Now that most of the civil rights activists have disappeared there is no one left with whom the shopkeepers can negotiate a solution.

SPIEGEL: The business world has begun to believe that many blacks see the fight against apartheid as a fight against capitalism. Indeed, many former industrialists have become reformists; some of them even traveled to Zambia for talks with the ANC. Can black opinion be influenced by action such as this?

TUTU: Provided the capitalists make a real contribution to solving our problems, then this could indeed reduce black opposition to capitalism.

SPIEGEL: Has this understanding from sections of the business world for the problems in South Africa come too late?

TUTU: I retain my deep dislike of capitalism. My own experience of capitalism has left me feeling that it is crude and cruel. Capitalism demands a competitive way of thinking and promotes some of man's worse characteristics. I would much rather see a more caring, considerate society that was more prepared to share than amass. I'm basically a socialist.

SPIEGEL: What sort of socialism do you mean? Can you give an existing socialist system as an example?

TUTU (laughs): No, I'm an utopian and I would like to remain so. I also like to think of myself as a visionary and idealist.

SPIEGEL: Bischop Tutu, can you recall an event during your childhood in which you first became aware of discrimination?

TUTU: Yes, in the small town of ventersdorp in the flat countryside, where I grew up and of which I have many happy memories. We were learning history at school and I realized that during the war against the colonialists the blacks were always described as cattle rustlers while the whites captured herds of cattle.

SPIEGEL: And when did you become a determined anti-apartheid activist?

TUTU: When I was elected to churchwarden in Johannesburg. I wrote a letter to the then Prime Minister Vorster in May 1976 warning him of the anger that was growing among blacks. Vorster decided to ignore my letter [to the text of the letter from 1976]. Bloody uprisings occurred one month after my letter and many hundreds of people were killed. These events still have their repercussions today. I'm more convinced than ever that apartheid is the wrong way.

SPIEGEL: As a prominent government opponent you suffer much less than many.

TUTU: I'm not allowed to vote.

SPIEGEL: You're also not allowed to live where you want. Your official residence as bishop is in a mainly white area of Johannesburg...

TUTU: I'm contravening the law when I reside there.

SPIEGEL: You're able to run the risk because the authorities don't take any action against you. Or do you spend more time in your private house in Soweto?

TUTU: We spend an equal amount of time in both our residences. And in accordance with the hated apartheid laws I should carry my passport identification with me at all times, although I have made a personal decision to refuse to do so. I have to get official permission in my own country, if I want to move house. When I drive to Soweto I have to run the gauntlet of roadblocks. Many whites treat me as a black rather than a human being.

SPIEGEL: Has your opinion of whites changed over the years?

TUTU: I worry more about whites than ever before. I don't think many whites believe me when I say this.

SPIEGEL: As the Bishop of Johannesburg you're responsible for both black and white Christians of the Anglican Church. But many among the white congregation reject you, because they don't want a revolutionary as their leader. Many have left the church community. Are you misunderstood?

TUTU: Unfortunately, this seems to be the case. My concern is for the whole of South Africa. I would like to see a country with whites and blacks living together in peace. Anyway, only a small section of whites have left the church community - far fewer than we originally feared.

SPIEGEL: How many of the 4.8 million white South Africans would be prepared to live in the sort of country you envisage with a ruling black majority?

TUTU: As things are at the moment, not many. But the same thing was said about the whites in Rhodesia.

SPIEGEL: More than half the country's whites did initially leave Rhodesia.

TUTU: Most of the whites now living in Zimbabwe now ask themselves why they fought for Ian Smith. And many of the people who originally left Rhodesia have been returning recently. Most of these people are now discovering that the terrible changes feared have not come about - apart from the fact that they are no longer faced with the danger of being driven out of the country.

SPIEGEL: Do you feel that this danger faces South Africa's whites unless they do away with apartheid soon?

TUTU: I fear so. But South Africa is different from Zimbabwe in many ways. There are relatively few whites that would like to emigrate, to let's say England.

SPIEGEL: Apart from this, approx. 2.5 million whites do not have a native country to which they could return.

TUTU: Quite. If the Boers were to knock on the door of other nations for entry, many of these countries would surely have great reservations about allowing entry to thousands of racists.

SPIEGEL: Shortly after receiving the Nobel Peace Prize almost a year ago, you demanded a timetable from the South African government. You said that apartheid should be abolished within two years. One year on, half of the time has elapsed. Are you encouraged by the development so far?

TUTU: No. I now agree with the time limit set by the Commonwealth which gives the government until the middle of next year at the latest to abolish apartheid. If this does not happen, I will concentrate my efforts on promoting international sanctions against South Africa.

SPIEGEL: The Commonwealth regards sanctions as being voluntary. Sanctions will not be automatically hanged, if demands are not met.

TUTU: Regrettably this is true. I will be demanding automatic sanctions because the fuse is getting shouter with every passing day. We don't have much more time and the situation is desperately serious. And, as the clock ticks, the government can only produce empty words which - if one looks at them closely - only go to prove that Pretora is simply window-dressing apartheid.

SPIEGEL: What role could you and the church in general play in preventing South Africa's seemingly unstoppable slide towards disaster?

TUTU: We in the church are paving the way for conciliation between blacks and whites. We have to speak up for those without a voice and stand up justice because without these there can be no peace. And we also hope to be there when the broken pieces and shreds are being put back together.

SPIEGEL: Do you believe that South Africa will end in shreds?

TUTU: Our country is burning. It's bleeding to death and I fear that we are standing on the verge of a terrible disaster unless apartheid is abolished soon. But this can only be achieved with the help of the international community.

SPIEGEL: You have been asking Western politicians and industrialists to demand the resignation of president Botha. You have advised the international bankers that are currently handling South Africa's inability to pay to remain hard for as long as Botha remains in office.

TUTU: Yes that's right. I have been pointing out that pressure can be exerted using non-violent methods such as these.

SPIEGEL: Have you stopped believing that Botha's step-by-step reforms will lead to a peaceful change to South Africa's apartheid system?

TUTU: Apart from violence, the only language that the government understands is international pressure. Leading business people traveled to Zambia to visit exiled ANC leaders only after South Africa's currency collapsed. The international bankers now have the chance to attach strict conditions to their help.

SPIEGEL: And they are?

TUTU: South Africa's current economic crisis has been brought about the country's political policy. And so I would like to give the bankers some good advice: If you're looking for stability and security for your investment, apartheid must be abolished.

SPIEGEL: It is indeed true that the financial restructuring negotiations have not moved on because of the uncertain political situation. Do you think that Botha has to go before progress can be made?

TUTU: If he gets rid of apartheid, he can stay.

SPIEGEL: For how much longer can the minority government survive?

TUTU: For as long as Kohl, Thatcher and Reagan protects it.